Sophia Parker – Interviewing, Hiring, and Career Advancement Strategies

Table of Contents

Intro

Katherine Akbar:

All right. Well, we are so excited today to talk to you, Sophia. For everybody who's watching and listening, Sophia Parker has an amazing background, and she's going to be sharing with us what she's looking for in terms of hiring. Sophia was born in Taiwan, and she got a master's degree in mass communications. Then she got a second bachelor's degree in accounting after her first one in English literature. She had a successful career in private sector government contracting. Then at the age of 50, she established her own business. It was a boutique government contractor distinguishing itself by sharp focus on customer service. Today, she's built this into a very successful company that strives to advance its clients’ missions by delivering innovative, research-focused software, enterprise IT, data analytics, and program management solutions. Today, DSFederal has over 160 employees in four states, a direct result of Sophia's people-centric management style.

In 2015, the U.S. Small Business Administration recognized her as its Maryland Small Businessperson of the Year, which is only one of her many accolades we won't go into today. I do want you all to know that she has also founded a nonprofit organization, the IDEA Foundation, which is a 501(C)(3) dedicated to empowering women and children worldwide through health services improvement, skill building, and financial independence. They've been helping people in places as disparate as Afghanistan, Malawi, Puerto Rico, and even here in Maryland. She is also the author of The Alchemy of Hope, an autobiography that details her incredible rise from tough circumstances to amazing success. We're very proud to have you here today, Sophia, and welcome.

Sophia Parker:

Well, thank you so much.

Background

Katherine Akbar:

Now tell us a little bit more about your personal story.

Sophia Parker:

Well, thank you. I grew up in Taiwan and grew up in a very interesting time in Taiwan when it transformed from an agricultural society to industrial society, from under martial law to a free democratic country. I came to the United States in 1979, and I've been here ever since. This will be my 41st year in the United States. I love this country. I think the best decision I ever made was to come to America. I think I was just very lucky and very blessed to be an American citizen. Being an American citizen to me is just the greatest thing on earth.

Katherine Akbar:

Hmm. Wonderful. It's great to see those immigrant success stories. How did you end up in this field?

Sophia Parker:

I worked for U.S. government as a local hire, what we called a PIT, for the State Department. I worked for State Department for more than 10 years overseas, going from embassy to embassy, from country to country, where I really learned a lot about public service. Working with State Department, the diplomats as well as the local embassy support staff, you really realized how important the mission is and that the work was very meaningful. Therefore, when we returned to United States in 1996, I wanted to be either a public servant or working for a government contractor who indirectly contributed to the success of the mission. I never worked for commercial business. All through my adult life, it's always been working directly for the USG or as a contractor. This is the field I know, and being associated with a bigger mission makes what we do more meaningful.

Katherine Akbar:

Yes, definitely. I have that in common with you because I used to work for the State Department as well.

Sophia Parker:

Really?

Katherine Akbar:

Yes.

Sophia Parker:

That's great. Isn't that wonderful? I think the caliber of their staff is just so high. People came here for one purpose, and that's just to be of service. We represented the United States all over the world, and I think it's just such a meaningful job.

Katherine Akbar:

Definitely. Also, as you and I have both discovered, we can also find meaning in the private sector. There're so many things that can be done to lift people up in different sectors.

Sophia Parker:

Exactly.

Katherine Akbar:

Looking back, how have things changed in your field since you started?

Sophia Parker:

When I first joined SAIC, after we came back from Pakistan in 1996, when I first started out, I think you had the government-side contracting officers—or the CORs. They had all been very well trained, and they were all very well versed in FARs, and this collaboration between government and contractors was very cordial and very professional. Over the years, we see a change on the government staff. A lot of them have retired. We have the younger generation moving into being the contracting officers and CORs. I see their dealings with contractors have become less and less frequent. That collaboration became more rigid. Our access to the government staff has become very limited after 9/11, with NIH building up the concrete walls.

We used to be able to enter government facilities without much trouble, although these days, without a badge, it would be very difficult for you to go into a government facility, making marketing very difficult. You have to figure out another way of reaching to your end clients. We also saw this COVID-19. Right? You can't even go to a government site, even with a badge. Right? How do you market? How do you connect now through Zoom? It has really become a different way of doing business. We all have to learn to pivot. These are the things that we all have to deal with. It's a different world.

Networking

Katherine Akbar:

Yes. Therefore, it's the new breed of person, as well as the new circumstances where things are all virtual. How do you recommend that people network and become a known quantity so that they can be the inside candidate when they want to get hired?

Sophia Parker:

I would say get very active on LinkedIn, get very active on blogs, Instagram.

Katherine Akbar:

What did you say? You mean comments on the blogs written by somebody that you might like to work for?

Sophia Parker:

Exactly, or follow their blogs. What are they paying attention to? What are they blogging? What are the important things for them to see if this is the company that you will want to work for? I would say the first thing a candidate should do is find out about this organization's culture, right? Culture trumps everything, right? Do you believe in their mission? Do you believe in the way they grow their business? You can tell, are they aggressive, or are they just a staffing organization? Do they have a vision? Do they want to stay small? Do they want to grow? What's the likelihood of its being acquired? What does the government say about them? You can find all that on their website, on their blogs, and also follow the companies on LinkedIn. I would say thanks to LinkedIn, we're still able to maintain this relationship with the clients or with your potential employers. Just follow them and interview them; send them emails.

If you email them through LinkedIn, if you connect to them through LinkedIn messages, I find, no matter what position this person is, they will respond. That's a great way of getting in touch with them. Attend some of the virtual meeting, right? For example, I attend G2Xchange or NCMA meetings. You find out their names, and you connect with them on LinkedIn, and you look at their publications on LinkedIn. That is a good way to connect. Also, talk to their clients. If they are active in HHS, find out what they do in HHS or USDA. Is this step close to what you would like to do? Interview them: “Hey, I'm very concerned about upward mobility. Give me an example in your company how you promote upward mobility. What's your track record in that?” If you connect with their talent manager in the company through LinkedIn, I will say they will respond to you right away. That's even more effective than trying to find out their email address and connecting through their company email. Just go through LinkedIn.

Values

Katherine Akbar:

Yeah. It sounds great. Okay. In terms of your company, what would you say are the values that are your guiding lights?

Sophia Parker:

I think our value is that we are very big in R&D, and we're very big in promoting from within and testing it and piloting a project before we approach to our clients. It's a company that is ideal for people who like to do research, or they want to grow, and they want to learn. This is a fantastic learning environment. I read that every company is a training company, so find out about their training program. “What's your internal training program?” I think that is also very important. In our industry, if you don't grow, you die. Judging by the results, you can see if they pay attention to learning, to training for promoting employees from within. Ask, "What's the average years of employees staying with your company? What's your retention rate? What's your percentage of internal promotions?" These are all very important.

I think we're very lucky we're in a very stable industry—especially in this COVID-19 time. We're so blessed; we're so lucky. I would encourage young people or job seekers to look for jobs with contracting companies like DSFederal, right? We haven't really been affected as much as a service industry or other industry. I said, "This is a very good environment."

Katherine Akbar:

The contracting companies never really will be [affected], because the government always has money to spend, even when the economy goes down.

Sophia Parker:

Yeah, we are so lucky, so blessed, right? We need to make sure that when you pick a contracting firm, look at their track record and look at the type of contracts they win to see if there is upward mobility for you. I would say, if I were a job seeker, that's what I care about. It's not the salary you take home, because all these companies in the Beltway, we all offer very competitive salary. There's really not a shortage, and I see that the market is very, very competitive. It's a job seekers’ market. I would encourage you job seekers—don't focus on the salary. Look at the total package. Look at training opportunities when you're looking at the unseen opportunities, because that's really going to take you to the next place.

Conversely, when people look at your resume, if they see that you jump a lot, that is not a good sign. Recently, we had to give up a candidate whom we had as an employee before. We knew how good she is, but when we look at the history, just from between her last job with us and then her second time applying for the job with us, she had already gone through five, six jobs, right? We told her, "Stay put. Stay where you are; stay at least for two years." Those are very important as well.

Katherine Akbar:

Yeah. Those are great points, and that's really a contrarian opinion to say that it's a job seekers’ market. Are you saying that because if you're a contracting company, you have to get staffed up quickly, and that makes it a job seekers’ market in your sector?

Sophia Parker:

I think In general, again, there's no shortage in this area for government contractors supporting the federal government. As you just said, Uncle Sam is the biggest fire. We're not affected by the COVID-19, by the market downturn, so it makes it very competitive—especially now, because of COVID-19, we suddenly realized that, hey, working virtually is very acceptable. That opens up the market to the whole United States. It's even more competitive, right? It's no longer that, "Are you willing to travel from Columbia, Maryland to Rockville, Maryland?” You don't commute anymore. Right? It's all based on talent.

For us being able to hire quickly is very, very important. Again, it's super, super competitive for employers. We're always fighting against the same talent. What we look at is your stability. Are you staying put? If we invest in you, will you stay? Every employer, we're looking at resumes and the first thing they notice is, Is this person willing to invest in themselves by staying put?

Communication Skills

Katherine Akbar:

Yes. That is a great point. Sometimes people say, "Oh, this job isn't working out for me; I'm going to move on." I think that's fine. Sometimes you do have to think about what is working for you. What I do think is unfair to the employer and not wise for your resume is if you decide to move on without even trying to see if your employer can meet the needs that aren't currently being met—because a lot of times, employees have more power than they realize, and they just don't want to speak up, because they feel uncomfortable doing so, but it's going to be even more uncomfortable if you end on poor terms, because you promised them you'd stay for a certain length of time and then you jump ship.

Sophia Parker:

It's hard to show your achievement at a job if you've only been there nine months, right? It just doesn't add up. You have two paragraphs describing your achievements, and then we realize you only been there six months, and it takes more than three to six months to get to know a job. I would say, be patient. Do your research; look for the right company, the right job. Once you're with a company, if you don't like this job, talk to your supervisor or talk to the company and see if you can be transferred to another project. Once they invested in training you, right, they will do everything to retain you. Be proactive in the communication, giving feedback to your supervisor. This …

Katherine Akbar:

I really agree. I think that's especially important for the younger people to know, because I think a lot of times, they haven't had as much experience in asserting themselves appropriately. Sometimes also, it depends on the personality type, because I find that some folks are the kind of person who likes to follow rules and is a very steady personality, but the disadvantage of that personality type is sometimes they store up resentments, and then one day they just explode and it's like, "This could have been easily managed up." Just come up and see. If the person tells you they're not interested in making things different for you, that's one thing, but if you never bring it up, then that's totally on you.

Sophia Parker:

Right. Right. Communication goes both ways. In our company, we send out a lot of surveys, a lot of anonymous surveys. We have onboarding survey, 90 days survey, one-year survey and, in addition, twice a year, you meet with your supervisor to look at your goals, to see how they have helped you to achieve your goals, and every week, we have company-wide training, lunch and learns, right? If you are a talent, if you ask questions, if you volunteer, if you participate, your talent will be noted very quickly.

For example, we have an employee who joined us, not even 60 days. We realized, "Wow, what a talent! Willing to volunteer, he wanted to learn … his insatiable appetite for learning new things. Right away, we are talking about this person in our executive meeting and saying, "Here's a talent. How can we mentor this talent? How can we help him to grow?" Because ultimately it helps everybody. It helps our client and helps us. Be that shining star that's huge.

Katherine Akbar:

Tell us more. How did that person become a shining star? He volunteered. Anything else?

Sophia Parker:

Volunteer and give us feedback and say, "Hey, I noticed there's something on the website I can help or …"

Katherine Akbar:

Ask if there are opportunities to be helpful.

Sophia Parker:

Right. We also noticed this person takes time to participate in company lunch and learns and ask questions.

Katherine Akbar:

Gain knowledge.

Sophia Parker:

Yes. We still have very few people at HQ. I noticed that the person who doesn't have to come onsite is here because he wants to learn. That is very smart, right? Because he values that, being able to work with different managers. Be seen and be heard. I think that's also very important.

Katherine Akbar:

Yes. Build relationships within the company.

Sophia Parker:

Yes.

Katherine Akbar:

For sure. What kind of people will find themselves right at home at your company?

Sophia Parker:

Someone who loves to learn, someone who appreciates the attention that the management team is giving him or her, someone who wants to—maybe one time, in the future, be an entrepreneur. We have people say in the onboarding survey why they joined the company, "I joined the company because I also want to eventually own my own business. I joined this company because I want to learn certain skills. I want to be a manager." We review that onboarding survey, and then we pass along to the manager, "Hey, pay attention to this employee. This is what that person wants to learn. Create a learning program for that person." We hold the managers accountable.

Katherine Akbar:

That's not a turn off for you if they say they want to leave eventually?

Sophia Parker:

You cannot decide whether you want to hire a person or not on whether the person is going to leave you or not. Once you hire that person, that person is in, right? We've had people who joined us, left, and came back. As a matter of fact, I always tell young people, "If this is your first job after you being with us for five years, you go out and look for another job, because our way of doing things is the only thing we know. Open your eyes up. Go somewhere else; learn it. If you want to come back, come back, but what's good for you is you see different management style, different company."

There's a saying, "Would you not train your employees, worried that they will leave you?" The response is, "Do you want those people who are not growing, learning, stay with you?" Right? You provide the best opportunity for people. We do what's best for the employee. Then, we just go from there. You never know, because if you don't provide growth opportunity for people, then they will leave. They want to advance themselves. It's not about a paycheck. Job satisfaction comes from whether you're being provided opportunity or environment for you to grow. That's on both parties.

Seizing Opportunities

Katherine Akbar:

Excellent. How can somebody prepare themselves to have a better shot at the journey in your team?

Sophia Parker:

We have a high percentage of referral. Referral is very good, because if an employee is happy here, he or she is willing to tell their friends or family about, "Hey, I belong to this company, and it's a great company. I want you to be a part of this company as well." Referral is a big thing in our company. We really promote that and also meet our staff in different organizations. For example, we're very active in DrupalCon; we're very active in Pablo or AWS. Find out all about us, meet up with our managers and say, "Hey, what is it like to work for DSFederal?" Follow us on LinkedIn. I think that is a great way. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and just to see what we're doing and see if this is a company that would excite you.

Katherine Akbar:

Nice, nice. That's right in line with our philosophy too, that people shouldn't just look for who's hiring. They should make a list of who they'd like to work for and work themselves in.

Sophia Parker:

Right. Right.

Katherine Akbar:

If and when an opportunity opens up, or if they even say, “You know what? We don't have an opening now, but I can see that we need what you have to offer, so let's create one.”

Sophia Parker:

And they follow up. If you don't hear back from DSFederal in three months, send another email or send a LinkedIn message to the talent manager or the hiring manager: "The last time we checked in, you said that something might open up. What's the status like? I'm still interested in joining your company." We love people who take the time to follow up and follow through. As a matter of fact, that is a quality that we look for. If you write us a handwritten note, a thank-you note after the interview, that speaks volumes. I have hired people who did that, and that person turned out to be so successful.

Katherine Akbar:

Hmm, nice.

Sophia Parker:

Here's the little touch, that you take the time to follow up and follow through. I know that when you work for us, when you work with our clients and your managers, you will follow up and follow through, and that is a wonderful trait of a good candidate.

Interviewing

Katherine Akbar:

Absolutely. If and when you participate in an interview, what are the most important things you look for in a candidate?

Sophia Parker:

I participate in a lot of the interviews myself, along with the hiring managers. What I look for other than the technical skill, because we have the managers who interview for the skills, when I sit in an interview, I look for what I call fire in the belly. I look for someone who is energetic, excited, inquisitive, passionate. It doesn't have to be passionate about applying a job with us, but there's something in their life that they're passionate about, be it saving animals or working with senior animals or working in the shelters or making beads. I look for that sparkle in their eyes when they talk about something that they love. That's what gets my attention. I look for someone who can name their heroes, the people that they respect, or they follow. I ask them, "What books do you read? Who is your mentor?"

Katherine Akbar:

Do IT people read a lot of books?

Sophia Parker:

I ask them about, "Who's your hero? Is it Microsoft's Bill Gates? Is it Apple's Steve Jobs? Who is it? Who is it that you looked up to growing up that you would like to become? Why did you get into IT field? Right? When you see that they're just raving and cannot stop talking about this hero in their mind, that tells me something about this person. Or the person could say, "I'm a self-made person. I code day and night. I attend coding school. This is what I do. I cannot stop coding. I want to learn. This is the latest technology I'm following." When they light up, that tells me that person has that fire in the belly, and that's what I look for. Yeah.

Katherine Akbar:

Wonderful. What advice would you have for young or mid-level executives in order for them to have a successful life and not just a successful career?

Sophia Parker:

I would say, an integrated life. It's no longer work-life balance. It's how you be of the best service. What contribution can you make to the society? What makes you proud of what you do? What non-profit do you support? I think these are all very important. Once you start a job, you realize that what you do is for a better good, that you are a part of that better good. If it's NIH, how indirectly you are contributing to discover a cure. That's very important for young people. It cannot be just chasing a salary difference.

In the old days, prior to COVID-19, people might drive from Columbia, Maryland to Weston for that $5,000 difference in your salary. With COVID, we don't leave our house; we don't leave our bedroom. We can code in our pajamas. What would it be in there that will make you excited about what you do? It has to be a higher purpose. We don't go on and spend money anymore, right? Say like not taking your whole family to Disneyland or Disney World. Every day when you sit in front of a laptop, what is it that makes you feel excited? This is a good day that I contributed to something. I am part of a better good, a bigger good.

Looking Ahead

Katherine Akbar:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. What's ahead for you at the company?

Sophia Parker:

A lot of exciting things. We've invested heavily in public health and data analytics. We say at DSFederal, the “d” is for data. That's where our investment and where our future growth will be. To continue to help our clients to modernize their services is another big calling for us. Helping our clients to move to the cloud to know more about their data is very exciting. Again, because we support the federal government, be it USDA or HHS, that data is used to improve the service to citizens. Everything we do is directly or indirectly contributing to the society. That's what excites us. We realized that the individual coding, building something from scratch is yesterday. Tomorrow will be all about low code, no code. It will be more about blockchain.

How do we stay ready and be a step or half a step ahead of the client or the market? It really warrants on investment, hiring the best talent, people who have the aptitude and willing to learn, people who fit in our culture. We talk a lot about integrity. Without integrity, nothing works. Right? Say what you do; do what you say. Mean what you say, and that's all very important. There's no guessing. You're very clear on your goals. You need to be accountable, and we need to be accountable to our employees and to our customers. To continue to grow and to continue to foster this kind of culture is very important. Like I said, culture trumps everything. As you grow bigger, it's harder and harder to keep your culture intact, right?

We're no longer a small business. How do you keep that team going without losing that, the DSFederal flavor—make people feel like we're still a DSFederal family. Even though we can no longer share one pizza, how do we make sure that the message stays the same? Consistency is our big challenge. This is why we have a solid executive team who can support me in delivering that consistent message.

Katherine Akbar:

Yeah, so what is that message? What do you want DSFederal to be known for?

Sophia Parker:

We want DSFederal to be known to be the go-to midsize contractor supporting the clients in health and safety space. That's what we want to be known for. I admire ICF and people always remind me, “Even ICF started off as a small company.” Right? We look at ourselves as a smaller ICF. What I admire about ICF in the old days was ability to have the subject matter expertise in health and services and also a technical know-how. That's what I want to be known for, but again, focus on the health and safety space. We are not pursuing work in weaponry or a mass destructive field.

Katherine Akbar:

That's new!

Sophia Parker:

No, no, no way, and we're not paying attention to EPA, because that's not our field, and that doesn't excite us. What we want to do—it just stays in the health and safety space.

Path to Success

Katherine Akbar:

It's always smart, I think, to specialize too. Would you have done anything differently if you were starting today?

Sophia Parker:

Absolutely. A lot. A lot. Oh, my God. I can write a book on all the mistakes I've made and what I learned from it. I still make mistakes a lot.

Katherine Akbar:

Don't we all?

Sophia Parker:

Yes. If I started all over again, I will pay more attention to long-term strategy. I never knew that. In the beginning, I was still scrapping whatever we could find. If I started all over again, I will have much more confidence in myself, in my ability to deliver. I think even Tony Hsieh, the youngest Zappos CEO who recently passed away, in his book called Delivering Happiness, he talked about lessons learned. He talked about, if he had to do it all over again, he would have much more confidence in himself. I made the same mistakes as well, always thinking that "I know so little. We need to hire this expert, that expert. We can never do that. How could we do that? I know nothing." It's really: we all need to have confidence in ourselves. Nobody can know it all; we can't.

Katherine Akbar:

I think that's really important, especially for women, and I think that's a big problem. I think men, naturally, the testosterone gives them extra confidence, sometimes more than is merited by the facts. With women, I think they see themselves, studies say, more realistically, but sometimes in a more limited way—instead of seeing what they're capable of, they see where they are right now, and we have to have a bit of imagination to see what we're capable of. I was really lucky, because when I was a little girl, my father used to say to me, "You could be the first woman president of the United States." He set this bar very high right from the beginning. I never thought to myself, "I can only be this."

Sophia Parker:

Right. You're very, very lucky. In my culture, where I came from, women belong in the kitchen, right? That we succeed when our children succeed or our husband succeeds. It's in their glory that we exist, right? We're the strength behind them. We were taught to be humble; we were taught to be quiet. It's just different culture—different backgrounds.

Katherine Akbar:

Right. I mean, being Asian also, you're taught to not throw yourself out there as much as to conform to the system.

Sophia Parker:

Right, right.

Katherine Akbar:

That's got to be hard to overcome when developing an entrepreneur's mindset.

Sophia Parker:

Yes. That's why I waited until I was 50 years old. It never occurred to me I could do it, never ever.

Katherine Akbar:

What changed? Your Landmark Education training or something else?

Sophia Parker:

Absolutely. Without Landmark, I wouldn't even be here. Because of Landmark, I had the courage to start my own business. I'm still taking Landmark classes. I'm about to finish SELP. I don't know if you are reminded of SELP. It's tough, but I love it. That triangle—power, leadership, integrity—is so helpful. Had I known Landmark 10, 15 years earlier, I wouldn't have even divorced. Right? Because you cannot make another person happy if you're not happy. I never realized that.

I'm all about making myself happy these days, because if I'm not happy, then my employees are not happy. Right? It's not a selfish thing. It is really about, in the core, in the space, if you play on the court, you'll be 100% there because people watch you, your every move. Like Michael Jordan, every single move, people are watching you. Right? They watch your intention as well, so you have to say what you mean, mean what you say. That's … I learned over Landmark. Remember, they talk about that all the time, that you should have integrity. People who haven't attended Landmark Forum say, “What does that mean: say what you mean, mean what you say? Is it important?” Yes, it is very important. It is very, very important.

Katherine Akbar:

Yes. For those who don't know what we're talking about, Landmark Education is a personal development company. It has a full Curriculum for Life. Michael and I have both done it, as well as Sophia, so we strongly recommend it as a way to super-power you for greatness and happiness.

Sophia Parker:

Yes, exactly. I cannot thank Landmark enough. If it weren't because of Landmark Forum, I would never have started my own company. All I wanted was … I wanted something small, what they talk about, "This is ordinary and this is extra-ordinary." Yeah. Even now, when I make decision, when a thought comes to my mind, I say, "Well, that's an ordinary thought." There's nothing wrong with it, but why wouldn't it be extraordinary? Right? What would be the higher notch? Right? How would you put yourself out there? Right? What does it mean to empower others? What's the definition of leadership? It's not about you. It's about elevating other people. I use all these principles all the time. I don't remember it 24/7, every single moment of the day, but it does pop up in my mind that I do have to answer all these questions, so it's so wonderful. I take refresher courses all the time because you forget. It's good to always check in.

Katherine Akbar:

Yeah, never stop growing. What would you personally like to be remembered for?

Sophia Parker:

For the charity work we do. That's my passion. I always tell people, “I work at DSFederal so I can help at the foundation.” DSFederal affords me the opportunity to build a charity practice—that we support so many meaningful endeavors that we personally don't have time to do it. Thank God. There are so many wonderful, wonderful, good-hearted people. They're out there doing every day. That's what I want to do. You talk about third career, right? Now, we live much longer if we're lucky. Living till our 90s or 100 is possible, so what would I do after I retire? I definitely don't want to do this type of work until I'm 70, 75, so the third career for me is really charity work. That's where my heart and passion is.

Final Thoughts

Katherine Akbar:

Wonderful. Any other final thoughts that we should share with folks that are thinking about working with a bright light like yourself?

Sophia Parker:

Find out what you want to do first. Put yourself in the future. What would you like to be? Like you asked me, what would you want to be? Knowing what would you want to do. And work backwards. As we said in Landmark, "Put the future in the present." Right? Think about that first, before you go on looking for another job.

Katherine Akbar:

Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I can't wait to make the transcript and share it with everyone.

Sophia Parker:

Thank you, and then we have to have a Landmark reunion, right? Do our New Year resolution and think about 2021. We're almost there. We can only afford to do great things. Being ordinary is not acceptable.

Katherine Akbar:

Yeah. Wonderful.

Sophia Parker:

Well, thank you so much.

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